Upvote:-2
I think these riddles might be solves by examining teachings about sorrow.
SN 22.1 says sorrow only occurs when there is conceiving ideas of "self", as follows:
He is seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or 'Consciousness is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his consciousness changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.
He is not seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or 'Consciousness is mine.' As he is not seized with these ideas, his consciousness changes & alters, but he does not fall into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair over its change & alteration.
The Piyavagga says where there is no love, there is no sorrow:
210. Seek no intimacy with the beloved and also not with the unloved, for not to see the beloved and to see the unloved, both are painful.
211. Therefore hold nothing dear, for separation from the dear is painful. There are no bonds for those who have nothing beloved or unloved.
212. From endearment springs grief, from endearment springs fear. For one who is wholly free from endearment there is no grief, whence then fear?
Similarly, many suttas say sorrow occurs due to loss of loved relatives, as follows:
Now at that time a certain householder's dear & beloved little son, his only child, had died. Because of his death, the father had no desire to work or to eat. He kept going to the cemetery and crying out, "Where have you gone, my only little child? Where have you gone, my only little child?" Then he went to the Blessed One, who said: "That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is — for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear." MN 87
Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother... the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. SN 15.3
In MN 26, relatives are called "acquisitions" (upadhi), i.e., things attached to with infatuation, as follows:
And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth. MN 26
SN 12.66 says "acquisitions" give birth to "death", as follows:
The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: this suffering has acquisition as its source, acquisition as its origin; it is born and produced from acquisition. When there is acquisition, aging-and-death comes to be; when there is no acquisition, aging-and-death does not come to be.
Therefore, it seems sorrow arises from the death of what is loved; and what is called "birth" is based on "acquisitions" of things regarded as "self".
And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth. MN 26
In summary, "birth" appears to be the production of ideas of "persons" or "beings" from mere aggregates and when the aggregates change & alter (per SN 22.1), sorrow occurs.
Upvote:0
In my Mahayana interpretation, from birth comes "this entire pile of dukkha" such as: aging, sickness, death, separation from dear, meeting with undesired, sorrow, lamentation and so on and so forth. The list in the sutta is clearly supposed to be enumerating standard examples of dukkha from 1st noble truth. In Mahayana we often read such passages not literally but as casual colloquial idiomatic approximations.
When a text is interpreted in Mahayana style, we tend to pay attention to the implied meaning and the overall message more than to the details. So in this case we would understand this passage as saying "with birth as condition there come all kinds of dukkha" and treat the examples as pointers intended to outline the category, rather than as important on their own.
Upvote:1
If death must occur for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play; what is the cause for people having sorrow, grief & despair before death, i.e., in the present moment?
When someone from your family die you will grieve, feel sad and cry won’t you?
When you are at the moment of death you will feel sad won’t you? Other people will feel sad for you won’t they? You might have regret about a lot of things and people who care about you will have pain and sorrow.
If death must occur for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play; is sorrow, grief & despair only experienced after death?
Sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress and despair can come into play for other people who love you after you die. You can have pain, sorrow or lamentation when you are dying. If you were not dying then you wouldn’t feel sad because of it and other people who care about you wouldn’t feel sad if you were not dying. They might have pain about other things like losing their job but that’s another thing.
I think becoming, birth, aging and death, sorrow, lamentation are future lives. Consciousness, name and form, six sense media, contact, feeling, craving and clinging are this present life. Ignorance and fabrication are previous life.
Dependent origin cannot be understood by thinking intellectually. I think an arahant would be able to understand and contemplate it.
Upvote:3
If death must occur for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play; what is the cause for people having sorrow, grief & despair before death, i.e., in the present moment?
If death must occur for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play; is sorrow, grief & despair only experienced after death?
Aging & death must come together to show "if you born without unstable, it's ok. But actually, your life is unstable because it's going to be aging & death, it's not ok. Because while you are living, birth+aging+death, you are going to have sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play aging & death."
Pali context only shows birth causes "aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play". Nothing in pāli context shows aging & death cause "sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play".
jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā sambhavanti.
So, your both questions are misunderstood pali context. There is nothing in pali context shows "death must occur for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play". Pāli only shows birth causes "aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play".
In the other hand by pāli context, the sequence of paṭiccasamuppāda is "birth >> aging&death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play". It is not "birth >> aging >> death >> sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play".