Why was the first production PzKpfw V (Panther) called the Ausf.D, and the second production version called the Ausf.A?
score:10
UPDATE I have found a definitive answer to at least the first part, thanks to Steven J Flebbe on Patreon. This comes from German Tanks In World War Two In Action by George Forty, former director of the Bovington Tank Museum.
The first 20 Panthers to come off the production line at MAN from November 1942 onwards were designated Ausf A in the normal manner, although as we shall see, this designation was later changed. The Ausf B was to have been a version to be fitted with the Maybach-Olvar gearbox instead of the specially-designed ZFAK 7-200, but this proved abortive and the designation was never used. It could be said that the original 20 Ausf As were really pre-production models as they did not have any of the design improvements which had been proposed following the pilot model trials... What happened to the designation Ausf C remains a mystery, but it was presumably allocated to another model that never left the drawing board, so the first full production model was designated Ausf D. To try to keep the records straight the Ausf A batch was later given the designation Ausf D1, while the Ausf D was sometimes called Ausf D2.
That explains why the first production models were called Ausf D.
However, no explanation for why they went back to Ausf A.
The next production model was for some reason designated as Ausf A instead of the expected Ausf E.
UPDATE I asked Curator David Willey, of The Tank Museum, and he answered in the April 2021 Patreon Q&A.
I have never found a straight answer to why the first production models are coming out as D's.
Good work, you've stumped The Tank Museum.
However, he references Germany's Panther Tank by Thomas Jentz (the same mentioned by Marakai) to offer a theory. Unlike American A, B, C or British Mark 1, 2, 3 which designate a production number, Ausführung letters designate separate designs. If Ausführung D is ready first, that's what goes into production as Ausführung D. Furthermore, troops did not tend to refer to Ausführung letters except for repair and maintenance.
There was no particular order to the Panther's Ausführung letters. There's no evidence of a Panther Ausführung B, C, nor E ever existing. My own speculation is D stood for something like Tiger Ausf. H is for Henshel. It's not the designer, that was Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg (MAN).
And unlike the well-ordered US system, the German system is inconsistent over time and project.
He quotes Jentz (parenthesis are Curator Willey's interjections)...
...the Ausführung letter designation was not used when issuing Panthers to unit nor was the Ausführung used in making decisions relating to tactical employment. (Just because you've got G's and they've got A's or something makes no difference to the troops.) The original use of the Ausführung designation was for specific identification by the designers. The assembly firms also used the Ausführung designation stipulating in their contracts the delivery of a specified number of each Ausführung. As used by the troops the Ausführung designation was used to identify compatible repair parts and identification of differences to aid in maintenance. The original records do not contain a single reference to an Ausführung B, C, or E nor is it a logical assumption that these three letters were ever used. The Ausführung letter was a modifier applied to the designation "PzK Panther".
Curator Willey goes on to explain...
...what I think he's really trying to say is that actually as a Ausführung it's a specific set of drawings for a model. Not necessarily we always start with this model A, model B. And if the model as we think the model D is kind of been worked up and is ready ahead of what we might have logically said was an A... then that is the one that is chosen and why it's going into production that way.
This is my own speculation before I heard from Curator Willey.
Once you start looking into wartime German model names you realize it's a big mess.
David Willey, curator of The Tank Museum, mentions this in Tank Chats #16.
The actual first model is not Ausführung A, the model A, as we normally would consider them. They work down the letters in the German system. The first model that goes into production is actually the model D.
Obviously this contradicts how earlier Panzer models go, like the Panzer IV going from A to J. Those were all pre-war designs. Perhaps this is a wartime change, though I can't imagine why.
This also doesn't explain why they started with D, and why there's a later Ausf. F and G. Unless they hit A and had to start again from the top. Seems pretty short sighted to start with D.
When we look into the Tiger tanks we also see a mess. The Tiger I started out as PzKpfw VI Ausf H1, H for Henschel, the designer, in contrast to Porche's competing prototype. It's possible Panther began with Ausf D for Daimler whose prototype was considered superior, but Hitler chose the MAN design instead.
By the end of the war the Tiger I was PzKpfw Tiger Ausf E. While the Tiger II was PzKpfw Tiger Ausf B. They're both models of PzKpfw Tiger but in reality they are totally different tanks.
To add to the confusion, Tiger I began as SdKfz 182, but was later retroactively changed to SdKfz 181 when the Tiger II became SdKfz 182.
I've seen several references to an order by Hitler on 27 Feb 1944 to change PzKpfw VI to PzKpfw Tiger and PzKpfw V to PzKpfw Panther. This may account for the change in model numbers. But I've been unable to find this order.
My educated guess is they started with a simple, orderly pre-war system (PzKpfw I, II, III... Ausf A, B, C...) which broke down in the increasing chaos of wartime production, competing industrial concerns, and ego stroking. They started making it up as they went along (the first Tiger is not Ausf A but Ausf H for Henschel) then had to retroactively deal with the consequences (I guess we'll count backwards), and every once in a while Hitler throws a spanner into the works (it's not the PzKpfw VI it's the PzKpfw Tiger, and this utterly new tank over here is also PzKpfw Tiger). By the time Panther comes around in 1943 this mess has stuck.
UPDATE Nicholas Moran "The Chieftain" fielded this in his Q&A #10 @ 55:11.
As for why D than A, technically A then D then A, there are multiple theories, none of which with any documentary evidence behind them. So your guess is as good as mine.
Upvote:4
Panther variants designation is a highly controversial topic. There are many conflicting pieces of information, some sources are based on Allied intelligence reports and many info has just been invented postwar to make some sense of the whole Panther versioning mess.
First, you must appreciate that the Panther tank was constantly changing. There are several different variants inside each of 3 major versions (D, A, G). Also, all versions were used in parallel and it was not unusual that on repairs older models were fitted with newer parts creating even more confusing hybrids.
Second, as you probably know the Panther tank was intended to be used in Operation Citadel e.g. attack on the Kursk salient on the Eastern front. As Panther was in the prototype and early production stage at the time many things got rushed, some requirements couldn't be made at all, some couldn't be made on time for the Citadel, some were unified etc...
But the most common timeline of events goes something like this.
The very first version vas actually Ausf A.
This was the designation for so-called Null-serie of 20 prototype vehicles. They had weaker HL 210 engine, an earlier version of Kwk42 gun (single chamber muzzle brake) and maybe just 60 mm front hull armor (but some says it was already upgraded to 80 mm). They were never used in combat.
Some designate this batch as A1 to differentiate them from later Ausf "A after D" versions. Some say that this batch was later redesignated to D1 - but read on.
Ausf D
Production apparently started on Dec 1942 and this was tank intended to be used at Kursk. First 250 vehicles were fitted with HL 210 engine. It has 80 mm hull front armor, standard gun (double chamber muzzle brake).
This version got famous at Kursk for poor reliability.
It is usually designated as D1 to differentiate them from later versions with the HL230 engine.
Later Ausf D that some designates as D2 was fitted with final HL 230 engine and have many reliability improvements either on the production floor or in the field. Some designate as D2 only the variants with Schürzen side skirt upgrades. Production of this model was ordered stopped on July 1943 but last ones rolled off on September 1943.
Ausf A
That was the first actual production version. Production started on August 1943 with many reliability changes, redesigned turret, MG mountings etc... Some 2.200 vehicles were produced until May 1944 (or maybe even later)
Now, the exact reason why it was designated as "A" instead of logical E is not known. But we can assume that this was intentional "political" decision and not some kind of error.
Possible reasons might be:
- This model finally incorporated all the requirements dating back to the autumn of 1942 without shortcuts being made because of the Kursk deadline
- A bad reputation of Ausf D might be the factor to discard the whole "Ausf D" batch as a kind of prototype/experimental vehicles and to start over.
Since the "Ausf E" is later skipped, my theory is that "Ausf A" was originally supposed to be "Ausf E".
Some designate this variant also as Ausf A2.
Ausf F
This variant was linked to the Panther II project. It was started around Jan-Mar 1943 when Hitler requested to increase hull armor to 100 mm and that couldn't be incorporated into the original Panther design. Panther II project was dragged on and quietly shut down.
It made several advances that wanted to be incorporated into the existing Panther design.
Most major of this was Schmalturm or small turret. Basic idea was to create smaller turret with a minimized frontal area that would reduce weight but keep the same level of protection. It was never finished, and there were just a few prototypes but some other things from Panther II were later incorporated into Ausf G. There were also experiments of Ausf F powered with gas turbine (GT-101 version of BMW003 jet engine), ideas to mount Jagdpather's 88mm Kwk43/L71 gun and so on.
As Panther II started in early 1943 and the earliest date for start of Ausf G project I could find was May 1943 (and this seems a little too early for me) the Ausf F was probably started somewhere during the spring of 1943.
and finally
Ausf G
The most common, most known and most produced version that started the production on March 1944. I won't write about it here as it is easily found all around the internet.
More post
- 📝 How long does it take to craft the kinds of armour worn by typical medieval warriors in europe?
- 📝 Is it really true that more high-ranking Nazis died in Tatra cars than in combat?
- 📝 What's going on with this graph of wheat prices in "Civilization and Capitalism"?
- 📝 Was the west bank of the Nile farmed in Ancient Egypt?
- 📝 What happened to Wilhelm Hoffman?
- 📝 What was the price of bread in France from 1789 - 1815?
- 📝 Did Herman Melville write the "textbook" chapters of Moby Dick?
- 📝 Was the end date of Soviet-Japanese Border War the direct reason of starting Soviet invasion on Poland in 1939
- 📝 How did Hitler get off so lightly after the Beer Hall Putsch?
- 📝 Was Buddha well known by western Romans in Late Antiquity?
- 📝 Differences among foraging, cultivation, domestication
- 📝 Where/when does the wok start to differentiate itself from pot-style cooking vessels?
- 📝 How many aircraft participated in each of the three waves against the Yamato?
- 📝 What were Nazi policies around converts to Judaism?
- 📝 When Louis I of Hungary died in 1382, why did Polish lords choose Jadwiga instead of Mary as the monarch?
- 📝 How does a heraldic eagle become a nazi symbol?
- 📝 Did allied soldiers in the WWII Pacific Theater use the term 'flak' for anti-aircraft guns?
- 📝 Where can I find historical statistics about Catholic monasticism?
- 📝 How could the 4/5 devaluation of Franc Poincaré in 1928 end the financial crisis France was going through?
- 📝 How realistic are the number of battle deaths in the Anabasis?
- 📝 Why didn’t the USSR and CCP reinstate ties after Mao’s death?
- 📝 In what way were Renaissance battles like chess matches?
- 📝 Did German spies operate in Austrian territory up to 1914?
- 📝 Identify two Medieval Indian coins
- 📝 Bow shape of WW1 warships
- 📝 What alloy was used in early steam turbines? (1900 - 1930)
- 📝 Has there ever been any assassination so that another assassination could happen during the first one's funeral?
- 📝 Why didn't the Ottomans conquer (what is now known as) Morocco?
- 📝 Did Julius Caesar say: "Africa, I have grabbed you"?
- 📝 Was smoking allowed aboard hydrogen-filled zeppelins?
Source: stackoverflow.com
Search Posts
Related post
- 📝 Why was the first production PzKpfw V (Panther) called the Ausf.D, and the second production version called the Ausf.A?
- 📝 Why in the 70s and 80s was the United Kingdom called Great Britain in the international naming conventions?
- 📝 Why did the First and Second Industrial Revolutions start in Europe?
- 📝 Why were the drawings of Colossus burnt after WW2 and why was its very existence "of course" kept secret?
- 📝 When and why was the samurai class abolished?
- 📝 How and why was the boundary between West and East Berlin decided to be where it was?
- 📝 Why was the US so pro-China and so anti-Japan before WW2?
- 📝 Why was the Red Army successful against the Japanese in 1939 but perform poorly against Finland 1939-40 and early part of WW2?
- 📝 When was the American War of Independence first called a 'Revolution'?
- 📝 Why was the Cold War carried out over the whole world instead of between Siberia and Alaska?
- 📝 Why was the Spanish kingdom in America called New Spain if Spain didn't exist as a country back then?
- 📝 Why was slavery profitable in the Southern colonies and not New England?
- 📝 Why did Japan not withdraw from China as its pacific front was crumbling and the threat of US invasion imminent?
- 📝 When and where was the first time moveable bridge?
- 📝 Why Europe became more developed although metal was first discovered and used in Asia/Africa?
- 📝 When was the concept of the "border wall" between the United States and Mexico first proposed?
- 📝 Why was an SS commander dismissed and charged for the mistreatment of Jewish prisoners?
- 📝 Why was ancient Christianity more successful than the Roman pantheon and Judaism in gaining followers?
- 📝 When was King John of England given the name 'Dollheart', and who first used it?
- 📝 Why was old Shanghai called "Whore of the Orient"?
- 📝 How was the relation between the Ottoman Empire and Serbia, Greece, and Montenegro during the Second Balkan War?
- 📝 Why was Bulgaria at war with both the Allied and the Axis at the end of WWII?
- 📝 Was there any conflict/interaction between the Black Panther Party and the Nation of Islam?
- 📝 Why did antique guns and swords from the Franco-Prussian War make part of the demilitarization program to which Germany was subjected?
- 📝 Why was Salzburg called „Stadt der Lebensforschung“ by the Nazis?
- 📝 Why was Italy unified under the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia and not under a stronger state?
- 📝 What was the first instance of native Americans using gunpowder weapons in battle and did they ever make their own powder?
- 📝 Why was Hiroshima selected to be the city in Japan on which the first atom bomb was dropped?
- 📝 Why was Austria given the best chunk in the First Partition of Poland, even while protesting it?
- 📝 What was the first confirmed use of black powder to blow stuff up in war (in China and in Europe)?