Is rebirth a delusional belief?

Just like an apple falls from a tree to the ground because of gravity, in the same way beings are born because of ignorance.

And what ignorance?

Not knowing the cause of suffering.

By not knowing the cause, beings search an end to suffering.

While searching for an end, beings do activities. Activities like:

"This is me."

"This is mine."

"I am this and that and that."

"When I die, I'll go to heaven."

"When I die, I'll be reborn."

"I wish I had a better life."

"I want that!"

"That is what would make me happy."

"Oh I'm miserable! Let me be better."

etc.

These same activities in the moment of our death are the cause of rebirth.

Activities is karma. Karma in the present, which defines our future. Karma from the past, which defines our present. Karma which gives us form over and over again. Which propels our births.

In most beings activities arise because of not knowing an end to suffering.

And how to see all this for yourself?

Close your eyes and let go.

Let go even of the perception of the object of meditation.

Let go even of the perception that you let go of the object of meditation.

Let go of everything.

...

In this very same "state" truth can be realized by asking yourself the question "who am I?"

By doing this, and asking yourself the question "who am I" a path will be entered.

"Who am I?", observe and let go.

Observe. Let go.

Learning will occur. New knowledge will be gained.

Many questions will be asked.

Many answered.

One will lead to the next naturally.

Just like an experienced detective drills to the motive of a murder, in the same way you will drill to the cause of suffering.

This path will lead you to the end of suffering. Along it, the truth about reincarnation will be realized too.

Why do we so desperately want to believe that we were once eagles or lions and some person’s relation, despite genetics saying no?

Here is what I believe: we either had one past life where were once immortals, our real selves from before the past. The other possibility in my mind is that after the first rebirth, we became God’s enemies and we were killed by false doctrines or to stop it, around eight or nine times, this life being our ninth or tenth and likely our last. That might explain why we keep finding human fossils that look like us but we keep failing to find one that bridges the latest fossil with our own bones.

If you want more, let me know in the comments.

Rebirth is the one of the main reasons to practice Buddhism otherwise you are just following nihilism, just kill yourself and its done. It will not match the concept of dependent origination or the middle way. Its no included in the agreements of the Theravada and Mahayana because it is not part of practice and also assumed knowledge, if you go to a Buddhist country and ask a Buddhist about rebirth they will undoubtedly believe it but they might not know the four noble truth. In the same way both schools recognize there are Gods,Asuras, Animals, Hells why not add it too?

I am fairly new to this forum and came across this question via another question where my answer was controversial. I was surprised it was controversial on this forum and wanted to explain why in a calm and reasoned way. I hope this is a good place to do so.

I'm a student in the Gelug branch of Tibetan Buddhism where fostering a healthy faith in rebirth is considered core to the Buddhist path. In fact, rebirth is taught by my teachers - including His Holiness the Dalai Lama - to be a phenomena the truth of which can be known with certainty through reasoning alone although I still struggle to understand how.

However, I'm also a westerner and a skeptic who has a fairly hard time with the doctrine of rebirth in my tradition. In particular, it seems to me that rebirth is a matter of faith and I have a difficult time understanding how it can be known definitively through reason alone as taught in my tradition. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm (relative to my tradition) considered a skeptic about rebirth.

One thing I am not skeptical at all about is that the historical Buddha taught a doctrine of literal rebirth. That is to say, while I have some doubt about the doctrine of rebirth I find it hard to understand how anyone could doubt that the Buddha taught this doctrine. The doctrine of rebirth is laced throughout the Sutras. And not just the Mahayana Sutras either, but the Theravada as well.

As a purely factual matter, I just don't see how the notion that the Buddha did not teach the doctrine of rebirth can be entertained. The Pali canon is suffused through and through with the Buddha speaking about rebirth.

This is a great resource, rounding up many of the places in the Sutras where the Buddha taught rebirth: The Truth of Rebirth And Why it Matters for Buddhist Practice by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Consider this:

"There are, headman, some contemplatives & brahmans who hold a doctrine & view like this: 'All those who kill living beings experience pain & distress in the here-&-now. All those who take what is not given... who engage in illicit sex... who tell lies experience pain & distress in the here-&-now.'

"Now there is the case where a certain person is seen garlanded & adorned, freshly bathed & groomed, with hair & beard trimmed, enjoying the sensualities of women as if he were a king. They ask about him: 'My good man, what has this man done that he has been garlanded & adorned... as if he were a king?' They answer: 'My good man, this man attacked the king's enemy and took his life. The king, gratified with him, rewarded him. That is why he is garlanded & adorned... as if he were a king.'

"Then there is the case where a certain person is seen bound with a stout rope with his arms pinned tightly against his back, his head shaved bald, marched to a harsh-sounding drum from street to street, crossroads to crossroads, evicted through the south gate, and beheaded to the south of the city. They ask about him: 'My good man, what has this man done that he is bound with a stout rope... and beheaded to the south of the city?' They answer: 'My good man, this man, an enemy of the king, has taken the life of a man or a woman. That is why the rulers, having had him seized, inflicted such a punishment upon him.'

[The Buddha then cites similar cases where some people are rewarded for stealing, engaging in illicit sex, and lying, whereas other people are punished.]

"Now, what do you think, headman: Have you ever seen or heard of such a case?"

"I have seen this, lord, have heard of it, and will hear of it [again in the future]."

"So, headman, when those contemplatives & brahmans who hold a doctrine & view like this say: 'All those who kill living beings [etc.] experience pain & distress in the here-&-now,' do they speak truthfully or falsely?"

"Falsely, lord."

"And those who babble empty falsehood: Are they moral or immoral?"

"Immoral, lord."

"And those who are immoral and of evil character: Are they practicing wrongly or rightly?"

"Wrongly, lord."

"And those who are practicing wrongly: Do they hold wrong view or right view?"

"Wrong view, lord."

"And is it proper to place confidence in those who hold wrong view?"

"No, lord."

— SN 42.13

I just don't see how you can square the above or many, many, many other places where the Buddha teaches about the truth of rebirth with the notion that the Buddha did not teach about the truth of rebirth.

Now, many skeptical about rebirth - like me - would point out that the Buddha often used skillful (upaya) means to help others. They might argue that Sutras like the one above and many of the other places are simply instances of the Buddha using skillful means to those who come to the Dharma already having great faith in the truth of rebirth. I can respect and understand that viewpoint even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

Another thing that skeptics say about rebirth say is that perhaps the Buddha was just wrong about this. I also have to respect this viewpoint even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

Another option is to just deny the authenticity or validity of the Sutras where the Buddha speaks about rebirth, but this would leave so many Sutras cut from the canon that I just don't know how you could intellectually justify that. It sounds like motivated reasoning: denying authenticity of only those Sutras that explicitly talk about a doctrine you have a hard time believing or understanding. Maybe there is a way to honestly justify it, but I don't see how.

These are the reasons I was so surprised that my answer was controversial. It could be that I am just wrong and completely misunderstanding something, but I just wanted to explain my reasoning.

Many answers here. I will not surprise if mine was ignored.

My perception come from what I have saw all over my life.

My practitioners, A numbers people around me. All of those can recall past life.

Can know the future.

Can see heaven hell, even some can see Nirvana. Can know karma.

Can know what ever someone thought in real-time.

Can even see what happened in from far places.

Can control, Not just a dream.

I can completely say that whatever Buddha teach was no metaphor to make us confuse.

And I can guarantee that these abilities can be intentionally practised. Not happened randomly.

And I also know how to practice even though I’m not currently success. And there are so many ways to practice.

So I will conclude the very short answer here.

Except you’re seeing rebirth as metaphor, It would be nonsense if when the Buddha teaches was unprovable -- Buddhism would be no different than theist religions.

So there are 40 meditation subjects. A couple of them can make these abilities happen. One of those abilities is divine eyes. And it happened for everyone who have successfully practised. Not just random.

Those subjects are

1. Light Kasina
2. White Kasina

Also what I saw in my life these abilities can be practised in shortcut ways, easy way that most people can practice.

Even it’s not perfect as Kasina at first, but can make people prove how rebirth, hell, heaven, karma is actually real. No metaphor here.

Please don’t get me wrong here.

I’m not saying that we need those super natural abilities.

I don’t think we necessary need these if people already walked in the ways Buddha teach.

But it really need for the one who’re with very high scepticism and does not belief things easily.

My intention is these will clarify everything you doubt, and the really true reason why to practice in Buddhism.

It could be argued that any belief or disbelief is delusional, particularly when there is attachment or aversion to views. In any case the suttas do describe beings reappearing in different realms according to their actions, and I see little point in trying to "prove" this wasn't a part of the Buddha's teaching. On the other hand I don't see any need to believe in rebirth and the realms, particularly when it doesn't seem relevant to daily practice. IMO agnosticism is the pragmatic response here.

There is no reincarnation. There is rebirth. Rebirth is merely the continuation of that-which-flows in the realm of space-time.

Rebirth is like consequent experience after death.

It is also consequent arising of suffering after the breakup of the body.

"Rebirth" is pivotal to the inference of all transient phenomena being classed as suffering.

For feelings to be categorically classed as suffering you need to infer the dependent origination of existence, in particular you need to infer desire as demonstrable basis for birth.

If you can't do that then one can neither prove that all desire for feeling is categorically delusional and won't be able to refute statements like this; "Pleasure in moderation is not a problem"

When one explains how feelings are bait, one needs to show that even slightest amount of desire leads to birth, aging, sickness & death by itself.

Otherwise people will just say there is no problem in pleasure if done in moderation & kept to a minimum because in the here & now (over the course of a lifespan) there are little to no apparent bad results evident for one skilled in restraint & moderation.

One who does not get it won't achieve disenchantment because he does not see the long term as the long term and is shortsighted even tho he considers the entire lifespan.

He may repeat as a mantra "impermanent phenomena are suffering" but that is just lipsevice and he does not comprehend it fully.

Imo this the most explicit sutta support for rebirth;

[...]'Lord, Anathapindika the householder is diseased, in pain, severely ill. [...]Then Ven. Sariputta, having put on his robes and, taking his bowl & outer robe, went to the home of Anathapindika the householder with Ven. Ananda as his attendant.[...] Then, not long after they left, Anathapindika the householder died and reappeared in the Tusita heaven. Then Anathapindika the deva's son, in the far extreme of the night, his extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta's Grove, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and stood to one side. [...] Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "Lord, that must have been Anathapindika the deva's son. Anathapindika the householder had supreme confidence in Ven. Sariputta."

"Very good, Ananda. Very good, to the extent that you have deduced what can be arrived at through logic. That was Anathapindika the deva's son, and no one else." https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.143.than.html

Rebirth is real and eventually will be proven, as is the afterlife (with heavenly and hellish worlds).

As The Buddha explained:

"Sariputta, there are these five destinations. What are the five? Hell, the animal realm, the realm of ghosts, human beings and devas." - MN 12

"Secular Buddhism" and other modern day forms of Buddhism are heretical and fit into wrong views:

"And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view" - MN 117 (recurs many times over and over again in the Pali canons)

Secular Buddhism and other modern day forms of Buddhism were predicted by The Buddha:

"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering.

But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about." - Ani Sutta (SN 20.7)

We see that outsiders and disciples have come to replace Buddhism with new fundamentally different forms of Buddhism, so different how can they be Buddhism?

These new type of Buddhists teach people to cling to views, become attached to ideas, and use incredulity rather than trying to observe the truth.

Looks like Buddhism is almost already exterminated!

If you achieve higher states your wrong views will naturally automatically disappear and you will see that it's really true that re-birth or re-existence really is true.

The Buddha explained how many births there are:

What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?"

"As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans."

"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

"This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.....

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." - Assu Sutta

Persistence of experience, in a continuous event during the time we are alive gives the mistaken impression that, if we pay insufficient attention, we may reach the conclusion that we who experience do not change, and are something other than the changing physical animal we are. Insight into the error of supposing an essence which sustains experience and endures beyond it is the benefit of learning the truth of the principle of Anatman or Anatta.

The desire for such a continuity and endurance may lead us to affirm it and find reasons to promise and explain it, and this is what led to doctrines of essentialism and also to the teachings of rebirth in Buddhism. Taken as a metaphor, we are reborn each and every day upon waking in the sense that, using the raw materials of memory and the rudiments of our character, we reconstruct once more reflecting on the actions (karma) attributed to our cause the glamour of being a particular person with unchanging features, when in fact what is happening is the resumption of our attachment to this narrative and the particular character it preserves.

The same metaphor allows for an interpretation of the quality of past, present, or future experiences as 'heaven(ly)' or 'hell(ish)', yet need not have anything to do with experience which occurs after we die.

In consideration of dreams versus waking experience, the former are of a different character and conform to different principles. Dreams are less enduring and rational, are dependent solely on imagination for their content, whereas the waking world is far more consistent and has a physical basis of function and endurance. Knowledge of the latter is easy to acquire and just involves careful reflection and testing. Departure from this functional basis is one of the clearest indicators of being in a dreamstate.

The expansive significance of refusing to comment on what is not currently operative (gods or demons being present or absent, death presenting a continuity or discontinuity of experience, for examples) allows us also to refuse to comment upon what The Buddha did or did not say or do in any particular event.

Outside the confines of a sangha wherein doctrines are outlined as practical platforms from which one may benefit in supposing their veracity, believing or ceasing to believe things is inconsequential, save that it informs one's own motivation and response. This will have bearing on what steps will be taken to participate in or catalyze one's own realization, and so decisions of this type can become crucial in following the Path, abandoning it, or becoming lost in delusion.

Within the foregoing it might be transparent that certain conventions are supposed effective or authentic, such as the existence of the Path or Marga, the efficacy at least in part of the sangha or congregation of aspirants in walking this Path, and most importantly, the possibility of realization and insight which might arise from walking it.

The only warnings i have repeatedly received relating to beliefs or doctrines have in fact pertained to essentiality, and were characterized as Essentialism and Nihilism, these being coupled as twin errors of extremity. Whether one's ideas adhere to main schools, if one's beliefs could be identified as core to Buddhism so-called, or even if the Four Noble Truths or Eight-Fold Path were defined differently, this seemed far less problematic than to suppose there exists a central substance from which all of reality arises which itself does not change, or to suppose that the constantly changing quality of the cosmos indicates that nothing exists at all.

Belief in rebirth is as delusional as belief in self.

This is dependent of the meaning of rebirth.

Taking one meaning rebirth happens from moment to moment as one set of Kalapas pass away and a new set of Kalapas arise. In this context we can reason about it through Vipassana as it all happens within this lifetime. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_(Buddhism)#Rebirth_as_cycle_of_consciousness)

If it takes the meaning of Patisandhi still it is subjected to the same flow.

The bhavanga-citta is the same type of citta as the first citta in life, the patisandhi-citta (rebirth-consciousness). When the patisandhi-citta falls away it conditions the next citta to arise which is the second citta in that life. This citta is the first bhavanga-citta in life.

(source: Chapter 12 of Abhidhamma in daily life by Nina Van Gorkom)

By understanding mind matter process in this life you can understand it's working over many lives also. So the Dhamma the Buddha preached was verifiable in this life: Sandiṭṭhiko. Hence for your practice the fact that there is rebirth or not is not very relevant. From the time of birth you would have experienced stress some for or the other as per in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

Also developing Abhijñā you can verify rebirth by your self. Even this is not perfect hence can lead to wrong views. Many non Buddhist also had these abilities but this lead to wrong views (or a dilutional view in some cases).

One does not have absolute control over ones rebirth hence Annatha.

In every society some children gain spontaneous recollection of their past birth. Many authors have investigated such stories and found them correct. Read 'Twenty suggestive cases of reincarnation' written by psychiatrist Ian Stevenson on the phenomena of what he calls spontaneous recall of information about previous lives by young children and some adults through hypnotism.

Read Edgar Cacy's stories about rebirth.He had discovered many stories of rebirth through self hypnosis. Rebirth is a natural phenomenon discovered by many Brahmins in India long before Load Buddha's enlightenment. Your next birth depends on the Karmic force for which the person concern is responsible for. How those man and the woman became your parents? How do some people become experts in some fields. How those people become your children? These relationships occur life after life according to the power of love and cravings. However, whether you like it or not you will be reborn some day after this life. However, no one cannot explain this philosophy in a short message like this.

Can their be rebirth or death if what one believes will be born or die turns out to be a deception? Being under the influence of karma and this deception of identity is a result of believing in a self that one believes is an aggregate, that is born into form, that grows and changes, that dies and decomposes. Attachment is not to matter, but to a belief that we are matter or we are in matter and must get out of it, or we are somehow under the influence of matter and must get free of that. If you have a dream that you are a child lost in the wilderness and you are starving to death, what happens to that child when you wake up? Does it go away or does it disappear because it never had any existence in the first place? That is what karma is. Of course there can be seeds from previous interactions. I am not saying that one can just say a magic word and karma has no effect. But when we do not feed it on a daily basis, it withers like a weed that is without water. Zen practice of Dogen diminished the role of death as of little importance.

The Buddha is like a doctor (Iti 100) who treats the illness which is suffering (dukkha). Please also see this answer.

A lay beginner who still has self view (sakkāya ditthi) i.e. someone who is not yet a stream entrant, may need a different medicine compared to someone who is more advanced.

For a beginner with self view, the Buddha prescribed the following medicine:

• Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha; and adopting the five precepts as basic training rules. (AN 8.39)
• For cultivation of virtue in volitional thoughts and actions, one should think (AN 5.57), "I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do".
• To promote cultivation of virtue in volitional thoughts and actions, the Buddha also taught that it is a safe bet (in MN 60) to assume that one would be reborn according to one's kamma. You can also think of this as the "rebirth wager".
• To reduce clinging, he (MN 143) also taught to not associate oneself with the five aggregates, but this does not apply to the thought "I am the owner of my kamma".

To someone who is more advanced or is on a higher training path, like a fully ordained monk, the Buddha taught that consciousness is not self, consciousness is dependently originated, and the SAME consciousness does not wander on, as taught in MN 38 (quoted below).

The Blessed One then asked him: “Sāti, is it true that the following pernicious view has arisen in you: ‘As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another’?”

“Exactly so, venerable sir. As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another.”

“What is that consciousness, Sāti?”

“Venerable sir, it is that which speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions.”

“Misguided man, to whom have you ever known me to teach the Dhamma in that way? Misguided man, have I not stated in many ways consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness? But you, misguided man, have misrepresented us by your wrong grasp and injured yourself and stored up much demerit; for this will lead to your harm and suffering for a long time.”

Usually, when people think of "rebirth", they are thinking of the SAME consciousness which "speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions", as wandering on in this life and would be reborn into the next life.

In SN 12.61 (quoted below), the Buddha also talks of the mind, including consciousness, as arising as one thing and ceasing as another within a day.

“Bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because growth and decline is seen in this body composed of the four great elements, it is seen being taken up and laid aside. Therefore the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it.

“But, bhikkhus, as to that which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’ and ‘consciousness’ —the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because for a long time this has been held to by him, appropriated, and grasped thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’ Therefore the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it.

“It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worldling to take as self this body composed of the four great elements rather than the mind. For what reason? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for one year, for two years, for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty years, for a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’ and ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still another, so too that which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’ and ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night.

So, if the five aggregates of form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness are dependently originated, impermanent, not-self (SN 35.85); and arising and ceasing from time to time, then who is it that lives on in this life? And who is it that gets reborn into another life? The self?

It does not mean that there is no self at all (which is nihilism or annihilationism). There is a self, but it is a mental idea (Snp 4.14) that is constructed by the five aggregates via dependent origination. The self is dependently originated, impermanent, not self (as in an eternal core of one's being, like a soul); and arising and ceasing from time to time. Just like consciousness, it is not the SAME self that wanders on within this life, and on to the next life.

Yes, there is rebirth in the suttas, but it is not rebirth of a specific person or a self or a transmigrating soul. It is the "rebirth" or continuation of suffering. Suffering has been going on for a very very long time, without a clear beginning point (SN 15.3). Suffering that continues whenever and wherever there is craving (SN 44.9). And craving appears whenever and wherever there is ignorance. Suffering does not end with physical death (which is itself suffering). Suffering is only ended by Nibbana. Nibbana is the only "place" where there is no suffering.

In my opinion, whenever the suttas speak of the recollection of past lives, it is not the recollection of the past lives of a specific person, but rather the recollection of the past lives of suffering. And whenever the suttas speak of "rebirth" or birth, it is also the "rebirth" or continuation of suffering.

Kamma and its consequences also exist. It is simply the continuity of the cause-effect chain of dependent processes. However, it's impossible to analyze how kamma works precisely (AN 4.77).

"Anatta" does not mean "no-self". It means "not-self". Therefore, the Buddha did not deny the arising of the "self" concept in the mind. In fact, the Buddha taught extensively about how the idea of "self" leads to suffering (refer to Nakulapita Sutta).

The work "birth" ("jati") can mean the birth of the "self" idea or self-identity. In this context, you may refer to the Parileyyaka Sutta, which explains very simply.

Clinging to experiences as "self" is inherent to the operation of karma (action) & its results (vipaka). The enlightenment of the eight fold path ends karma (refer to Nibbedhika Sutta) since there is no more "self" attachment to create karma & obsess about its results.

The teachings of good & bad karma are called mundane or worldly teachings and are not related to enlightenment (refer to MN 117). Therefore, unenlightened people still have the belief in "self" and when they do karma, they rejoice in a personal way about the results of their good karma and suffer in a personal way about the results of their bad karma.

Therefore, whatever the unenlightened person does, be it good or bad, "self-view" keeps arising in relation to their karma.

This re-arising of "self-view" is one interpretation of "rebirth".

Try this essay: ANATTĀ & REBIRTH by Buddhadāsa Bhikkhu

I know too little to have an opinion on this matter, but here is an article where Thanissaro Bhikkhu argues that rebirth is "an important working hypothesis in following the path all the way to the end of suffering", that is, that the belief in rebirth is an important part of practising Buddhism.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/truth_of_rebirth.html

I'm a secular Buddhist who takes Mahayana as my starting point. What you are discussing is the cosmology-- the idea that there are six realms, maybe one or more pure lands, and places you can go after you die.

In Glenn Wallis's book "Basic Teachings of the Buddha," I think he persuasively argued that the historical Buddha was an extinctionalist and had no use for the hindu cosmology, but everywhere he went, that is what people wanted to talk about and hear about. So he recast his basic teachings in the jargon and images of the religious beliefs around him.

As a secular believer, I have to look at the various ideas that don't square with science, or as you observe, don't square with a lot of statement you find about Buddhism, an decide what to do with it. Is it a metaphor? Is it a useful one?

The central realization in Buddhism is that we naively think we have a permanent self (or soul) that will always be with us. One re-formulation of reincarnation to illustrate this is that, essentially every second I change and the me of a second ago is dead and gone, but there is a new one, right now. The only connection is the cause and effect of this chain of phenomena that naively looks like a permanent person or soul or self. So every second I die and am reborn into a new person, somewhat connected to the old.

This illustrates some central Buddhist themes but breaks down when we get to the point where we die. At that point, we are just dead. We live on in our actions in the people and world that survive us, but that really is stretching the metaphor.

Another point to remember about Buddhism is that there are many version of it and within each version you generally can find a sophisticated version, focused on things like philosophical questions (do we have a permanent self, what are the consequences of the answer), mediation, maybe ethics, and there is another for lay consumption, that involves devotion, magic for this worldly benefit and a keen interest in where we go after we die.

Personally, this all works for me. I don't have to worry about where I go after I die because the thing I wanted to survive my death (my eternal self, soul or what have you) was an illusion all along.

That said, there are many forms of Buddhism, which find it mandatory to retain a Hindu-style reincarnation, or literal heavens and hells and sometimes they have very interesting mental gymnastics to square how we can come back to life after we die or make it to a pure land, despite annata being such central theme in historical Buddhism.

Rebirth is a metaphor. There is no literal rebirth (of the same person). This hope for literal rebirth is really a hidden attachment to "I", the desire to continue. Let go. It's Ok, you will die -- and never exist again. In fact, "you" do not exist even now, as a separate being. It is just wrong understanding that is called "I". The world is continuous global process of matter/energy/information transformation, with no rigid boundaries in space nor in time. The boundaries are imputed by the analytic mind, they are concepts, abstractions, simplifications. It is attachment to concepts that we liberate from in Buddhism. Attachment to concepts is what leads to fear and suffering, because the concepts always fall behind the ever changing world. When your idea of how something is "supposed to be" mismatches your idea of "how it is" -- hereby is suffering. But the world is always there, behind ideas, infinitely more nuanced and multifaceted than any conceptual model.

Rebirth is a metaphor for the continuity of information and influences. Nothing ever goes away completely. Nothing ever stays the same. Something transforms, something splits apart, something joins with something else, something pushes something. These chains of causes and effects go on like this, infinitely forking and joining. This is what rebirth is. My existence did not start when I was born, it goes way into past. My consciousness did not start when I was born. I inherited it gradually (not in one piece!) from mother and father, from books, from people, -- and they inherited it from each other and from the past. The sea of consciousness goes on like this, having its roots in the basic relationships, of fundamental patterns of the universe.

This is the part of the "rebirth" metaphor that is useful: that things are fluid and have continuity. Crude materialists assume that things completely disappear, like person disappears when it dies. But it does not disappear, it just looses its solidness, its togetherness. The knot unties, but the threads are still here. The truth is, this solidness was mostly a fiction anyway. Did you think you actually were a source of your decisions? Where do you think your desires came from, your preferences came from?

When most people think of "self" they think of some abstract core that is the subject of all experience and the agent of all actions. Buddha taught (and modern cognitive science tends to agree) that upon careful examination there is no such single core. Instead experiences result from interactions of multiple perceptory functions. Similarly, our actions are performed by a conglomerate of functions, without a single agent responsible for all choices.

When the notion of individual rebirth exists as an unexamined belief, it depends on this unexamined notion of "self" as its necessary foundation. Once practitioner is free from illusion of self (in practice, not just conceptually), the notion of individual birth/death/rebirth no longer applies. From this perspective, rebirth is a byproduct of attachment to a (substantial) self.

But because karma at large still continues to function (after Awakening), the infinitely forking/joining threads of causation that once were the subject of attachment continue to participate in activity and serve as causes for subsequent effects. In this sense, rebirth as principle goes on continuously whether we posit an individual or not.