Does Protestant and Christian denominations seeks the prayer of their deceased founder?

Upvote:0

It’s most peculiar to me that this question is asked of Bible believers.

The Bible says that those who have passed on from this life are dead in Christ.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” ‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16‬ ‭

Considering these that are dead in Christ are in the category of the dead the Bible forbids communication with the dead in multiple places

There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.” ‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭18:10-11‬ ‭

Further you are not even allowed to mutilate yourself from the dead, whether ceremonially, or in honor of or otherwise. They are dead.

“You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the LORD.” ‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭19:28‬ ‭

There is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Aside from the fact that both Abraham and the rich man are on the other side of death Abraham’s response indicates that the dead can’t do anything for the living, because the living have Moses and the prophets. If praying was an option then why didn’t the rich man ask Lazarus or Abraham to pray for his brothers?

But the rich man argues that if someone like Lazarus, who did not go to the place of torment, were to resurrect then the living will take note and his brothers would change.

In other words those who have crossed over or the dead are ineffective for the living.

I don’t see any examples of Scripture encouraging praying to the dead.

The example of Saul calling the spirit of Samuel the prophet, the text says that an elohim was seen which if you study demonology you will understand this was a fallen son of God, that was seen. He was mimicking Samuel. It wasn’t Samuel’s spirit. The dark side doesn’t have ownership of God’s children and Samuel could not prophecy on his own, he had to hear from God. Not possible that the Holy Spirit would be forced to prophecy through a medium calling up the dead. Too many issues with this passage to claim Saul prayed to the dead. Saul dabbled in sorcery.

Again this is a very strange concept but I get the impression you genuinely believe this is Biblical by the way you’ve phrased your question. Maybe you can show where this has Biblical backing.

The Revelation text you quote 5:8,9 that can be the prayers of the living saints. It could be the prayers collected from the saints in the past. None of that indicates that dead people are interceding in heaven on behalf of the living.

Not to mention there is no name given that has authority, except one. So praying in the name of another like a dead saint is futile.

“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”” ‭‭Acts 4:12‬ ‭

Upvote:2

I speak as a Baptist. We believe in sola scriptura, namely all doctrines that are required to be believed are contained in the Bible, and any doctrine not found in the Bible is suspect. To be more precise:

“The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.” —Westminster Confession of Faith

The Bible says very little about the activities of believers in Heaven prior to Christ's return and the final judgment. Here are a few of the things that we know:

  1. From Revelation 6:9-11:

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

The Christian martyrs are crying out for God to avenge their blood.

  1. From Revelation 5:

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased for God
    persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
    and they will reign[b] on the earth.”

The elders (Apostles and leaders of the 12 tribes of Israel) are praising God.

  1. From Luke 16:

    27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

    29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

    30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

    31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Jesus has Abraham denying that the intercession of relatives or even great figures like himself will benefit the lost. He refers all questioners to Moses and the Prophets.

Conclusion:

The benefits of a relationship of intercession between the dead and us is denied. Furthermore, the Old Testament forbids us to speak with the dead. Jesus is not dead, so we may pray to him.

Counter argument:

The OP disputes my interpretation of Revelation 5. So do others:

https://www.ignitumtoday.com/2013/09/15/its-biblical-to-ask-saints-to-pray-for-us/

The above article cites Revelation 5 and argues that the saints in heaven are praying and have no need to pray for their own needs, hence must be praying for us. That is a sensible inference (unless you believe in soul sleep, which many reformers did). It is also true that angels both help us on earth and are not permitted to receive our worship. It comes down to your definition of what constitutes worship, and what constitutes impermissible intercourse between the living and the dead.

Answers to a previous CSE question addressed some of this:

If Protestants won't ask dead saints to intercede because there is no mediator but Jesus then why do they ask living Christians to pray for them?

Upvote:3

I'd like to start by pointing out a small error. 'Protestant' is a branch of Christianity, so it's not grammatically correct to talk about 'Protestant and Christian' as two different things. You might say 'Protestant and other Christian...' (The other main branches are Catholic and Orthodox.)

Now to the main question. Protestants do not in general believe in asking the dead to intercede, no matter how holy they were. Some would say it was an Unchristian practice, but for most it is a preference for asking God directly. This is the case even for founders of movements.

There are different beliefs about whether the dead can hear our prayers or not. Some say the dead are not conscious of what is occurring on Earth, but some say they are. If they are then there is no reason to think they might not intercede on behalf of others.

More post

Search Posts

Related post