If the Holy Spirit came in Jesus, who is the "Holy Spirit" that David refers to?
score:4
John Piper explained the distinction between the Holy Spirit work in the OT and in the NT in this 2019 Interview article Why Is It Better That Christ Went Away (John 16:7):
Now we know that the Spirit was present in the ministry of Jesus. He was causing people to be born again in John 3. Jesus was doing his ministry in the power of the Holy Spirit. We know that the Holy Spirit was present in the Old Testament, overcoming the mind of the flesh. Just read Psalm 51 or Isaiah 53. He was overcoming the mind of the flesh, which, according to Romans 8:7, keeps you from pleasing God. We know saints pleased God in the Old Testament, which they can’t do without the work of the Holy Spirit.
We know he was there. But he could not, however, powerfully do his most essential work, which was glorifying the risen and crucified Christ.
If we read the Ps 51 superscription:
For the choir director: A psalm of David, regarding the time Nathan the prophet came to him after David had committed adultery with Bathsheba.
and the whole of Ps 51, we can see how David relied on the Holy Spirit to keep his heart pure and loyal, which made God to say that David is a man after His own heart. After his horrendous murder and adultery we can probably read this as David pleading to God not to take away the Holy Spirit from him like how God took the Holy Spirit away from Saul after his disboedience (1 Sam 16:14, 1 Sam 15:10-11).
As John Piper explained, John 16:7 instead refers to the Holy Spirit coming in
full, Christ-exalting, gospel-applying, new-covenant-fulfilling, deepest sin-convicting, Satan-defeating power while Jesus was on the earth.
The reason why the Holy Spirit could not come yet is
because every one of those hyphenated expressions, every one of those expressions of power, is based upon the death, resurrection, ascension, and rule of Jesus Christ. Those had to be done before the Holy Spirit could glorify them.
CONCLUSION: What Jesus was talking about in John 16:7 was the Holy Spirit that will guide us into "all the truth" (vv 12-14):
namely, the most important truths yet to be accomplished in his death and resurrection.
Thus, in Psalm 51 David was NOT talking about the same Comforter ministry, but for the ministry which helped him to please God by overcoming the mind of the flesh.
Follow-up question: Was the Holy Spirit already part of their tradition in David's time?
Answer:
Yes, the Old Testament authors before David already mentioned the activity of the Holy Spirit (albeit using another term such as "spirit of God"), although promises for the New Covenant have not been fully revealed yet by David's time.
This infographic shows 13 examples of the Holy Spirit working in the Old Testament.
Examples #1 to #8 and #10 are in the tradition available to David, such as:
- The Spirit participated in creation (Gen 1:2, Job 26:13)
- The Spirit gives life to humanity and other creatures (Gen 2:7, Ps 104:29-30)
- The Spirit came to empower judges and warriors such as Joshua (Num 27:18), Gideon (Judg 6:34), Samson (Judg 13:25) and Saul (1 Sam 10:9)
- The Spirit filled certain craftmen like Bezalel with great wisdom, ability, and expertise in all kinds of crafts to make the priestly clothing(Ex 35:30-31)
- The Spirit inspired holiness in Old Testament believers (Ps 143:10)
while examples #9, #11, #12, and #13 are prophecies not yet revealed by David's time, such as:
- The Spirit prophesied of the Messiah (Isa 11:2)
- The Spirit revealed the promise of the New Covenant (Eze 36:27)
- The Spirit identified the coming Messiah (Isa 61:1)
(source: The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament)
Upvote:1
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
David knows who God is. Israel only knows of Yahweh - the one and only God who is always known as a singular God - there is no other.
- Be gracious to me, God, according to Your faithfulness
- Create in me a clean heart, God
Obviously the focus is on God and His provisions and standards.
thy presence
thy holy spirit
David was well aware that the spirit God provides is simply His presence with those He has called to serve His purposes. It is His (God's) spirit that David seeks, so we see the 'thy' reference - 'thy' refers to God.
God provided His provision of wisdom, ability and guidance to those He chose for certain jobs and responsibilities.
You shall speak to all the skilful people whom I have endowed with the spirit of wisdom, that they make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him, that he may serve as priest to Me. Ex 28:3
So Bezalel, Oholiab, and every skilled person are to carry out everything commanded by the LORD, who has given them skill and ability to know how to perform all the work of constructing the sanctuary. Ex 36:1
This was not always a permanent provision. "take not thy holy spirit from me"
Once Jesus arrived on the scene, "in these last days", Heb 1:1-2
On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His son, whom He appointed heir of all things...
The one who believes in me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” 39But this He said in reference to the spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive; for the spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:38
The whole point of Jesus coming, living without sin, dying to triumph over sin and death for all mankind, and living again so that we can join him firstly in death, then as he lives, we also live, is to enable a new covenant.
The old covenant was based on the law - the law of sin and death. The new covenant was the law of spirit and life.
The old was physical, the new, spiritual. The old was temporary, the new eternal.
The OT prophesied about the changes coming in, Isa 32:15-18; 44:3-5; Ezek 11:17-21; 36:26-27; Joel 2:28
Under the old, God was distant, almost remote. The people only had limited access through the priesthood. In the new, God dwells within each person giving each a deposit or down-payment of the filling that would happen at Jesus' return.
While Jesus was on earth in the flesh, he was the presence of 'God with us' as His son - representing the Father perfectly. When he departed, God's and Jesus' presence was provided through the spirit God would send into the church.
When Jesus was glorified after his resurrection and exaltation to God's right side, he and the Father would dwell with in each chosen one.
Jesus replied, “All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them. John 14:23 They do this through the spirit of God, just as God fully dwelt within Jesus while he was in the flesh on earth.
More post
- 📝 Is the New Covenant a unilateral or a bilateral covenant?
- 📝 Salvation for Protestants who knowingly reject Catholicism?
- 📝 What were the scriptural arguments used for modern western racism?
- 📝 What is the difference between the Life that Christ gives and the Life that Wisdom brings?
- 📝 What is the significance of one-third in Revelation?
- 📝 Does the free will rebuttal to the problem of evil still work for those who believe in old earth/evolution?
- 📝 Are the Orthodox who are in schism with Rome able to celebrate the sacrament of Reconciliation validly?
- 📝 According to Roman Catholic orthodoxy, is Jesus Christ a human person, a divine person, both, or none?
- 📝 Philosophical proofs that God must be triune?
- 📝 What is the Protestant argument against Immaculate Conception?
- 📝 Contemporary Evidence for Jesus
- 📝 From the perspective of Catholicism are there any non-Catholic saints?
- 📝 Catholic Church and the Critique of Pagan Worship?
- 📝 How do Unitarians interpret John 1:1?
- 📝 Do any denominations have a positon on the doctrinal value of Job's friends?
- 📝 What is the role of a permanent lector at a Traditional Latin Mass?
- 📝 What is the scriptural basis for the idea that salvation can still be obtained after death?
- 📝 Does Christianity prohibit astrology?
- 📝 Biblical basis for baptism as a prerequisite for salvation
- 📝 Did Pope Francis say that the Gospel is radical?
- 📝 What percentage of Christendom takes early Genesis in a literal sense?
- 📝 (Jehovah's Witnesses view) Jesus statement about Great Tribulation and the situation due to which "no flesh will be saved"
- 📝 Has a slave served as a priest?
- 📝 Does reception of the Sacrament of Confirmation change a Catholic's standing the Church?
- 📝 Does the Catholic Church teach that it has the authority to change what is morally right and wrong?
- 📝 Can a secular government ever be a moral authority?
- 📝 Were other sins possible in the paradise?
- 📝 If heaven is not monotonous why would this world be monotonous if God willed to happen in that fashion?
- 📝 How do proponents of the Prosperity Gospel interpret Matthew 6:19-21 and Luke 6:20-26?
- 📝 What are the Roman Catholic pilgrimages in Northern America?
Source: stackoverflow.com
Search Posts
Related post
- 📝 If the Holy Spirit came in Jesus, who is the "Holy Spirit" that David refers to?
- 📝 Jesus says, that God the Father is a Spirit AND Paul says there is one (1) Spirit. How do trinitarians understand who or what the Holy Spirit is?
- 📝 What is the basis of the view that Jesus was separated from the Father and Holy Spirit upon death?
- 📝 How do Christians who believe in a witness of the Holy Spirit via thoughts & feelings respond to the claim that thoughts & feelings are unreliable?
- 📝 How does Catholic Church differentiate between the presence of Jesus and that of the Holy Spirit on the earth?
- 📝 Why did Jesus have to leave for the Holy Spirit to come?
- 📝 Who resurrected Jesus - the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit?
- 📝 What does it mean that Jesus, Father, and Holy Spirit are of the same nature but different personas?
- 📝 Did any groups or noted theologians in early Christian history teach that the Holy Spirit is matriarchal?
- 📝 What does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints teach about who Jesus is and where He came from?
- 📝 How do Eastern Christians explain Jesus "sending" the Holy Spirit in John 15:26?
- 📝 Is there any evidence that people of Jewish descent came to the Americas before the birth of Christ Jesus
- 📝 Do people who adhere to the Immaculate Conception of Mary believe that Mary and Jesus were both conceived in the same fashion?
- 📝 What is an overview of different denominations' beliefs about how Jesus Christ performed miracles? (By the Holy Spirit or by something else?)
- 📝 If only those who died after Jesus death are among the ones that go to heaven, how do JWs view the ascension of Elijah?
- 📝 On what basis was Jesus’ death sufficient for redemption according Non-Trinitarians who maintain that Jesus was not eternal God as God the Father is?
- 📝 How did theologians conclude that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit meant a refusal for repentance?
- 📝 In the book of John, is the Holy Spirit not in Jesus until the dove descends on Him?
- 📝 Since there is only one God who is not formed then how can the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that Jesus is a created god?
- 📝 What is the Biblical basis for the idea that the Holy Spirit will sometimes choose not to lead?
- 📝 Do preterists who profess the two-age model believe that Jesus is still with us?
- 📝 What attributes does Jesus have from an LDS doctrinal perspective that are different from the Jesus in the Holy Trinity?
- 📝 How was Jesus the Seed of David if Jesus is God who created Man (Adam), and David is the seed of Adam?
- 📝 What is meant by the expression that Jesus came in the fullness of time?
- 📝 What is the Biblical Basis of Eastern Orthodox Christians that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father alone?
- 📝 According to Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarians and all who deny that Jesus is the Almighty God, how can He be in you and live in you?
- 📝 How were people baptized in the name of Jesus without the Holy Spirit in Acts 8?
- 📝 Are there any commentaries from Trinitarians that explain why the Holy Spirit doesn't have a throne/receive worship in Revelation?
- 📝 Is there a study that has been done showing the transformational power of the Holy Spirit in people's lives?
- 📝 Do Cessationists believe that the Holy Spirit still speaks specific messages or instructions to Christians today?